F&B Pioneer on the cool side of Sustainable Production

Dean Attwell - Oakwell International 

 

Introduction

[00:00:00] Chris: Hello and welcome, this is the true zero podcast the next in the series and Today we have a very exciting Podcast lined up for you because for the first time we have a guest a guest One of our customers, um, a true change maker, uh, we've invited, uh, Dean Atwell, uh, group CEO of Oakland [00:00:20] International to join us.

[00:00:21] Chris: I say we've invited him. He's actually invited us here. So we're on tour today, um, at his, uh, fantastic site just outside Birmingham. Um, so Dean is going to join us. Dean, welcome.

[00:00:31] Dean: Thank you. I'm Dean Atwell, co founder, CEO of Oakland International, uh, 25 years into the job now and still enjoying it.

[00:00:39] Chris: Thank you, [00:00:40] Dean.

[00:00:40] Chris: And in a complete change to the previous podcast, we've replaced the dulcet tones of Rory, Johnny and Jono and replaced them with none other than Mr. Otto Terrell. Welcome, Otto. Potentially even more dulcet

[00:00:56] Otto: tones. Hello, everyone. Otto Terrell, head of [00:01:00] True Sustainability, working, powering True and hoping to get some businesses down to net zero.

[00:01:05] Chris: Yes, that and that is a actually a job promotion that we should be celebrating. So Otto recently joined the senior management team is now heading up a team on true sustainability. So that's a that's very exciting.

[00:01:17] Chris: , why don't we start with a, uh, brief [00:01:20] introduction to, to you, Dean and Oakland International, what the business does and a little bit more about the site that we're in today.

[00:01:26] Dean: Yeah. Thank you. Well, so you are based today for, for this podcast in our reddish site, which is where we grew up by, uh, by my humble beginnings with my mom and dad.

[00:01:36] Dean: Uh, first bought the site and that was farming, farming roots, first three [00:01:40] years in the caravan. Um, and the business has grown over certainly since I started my wife Sally in 1998. Over the last 25 years, we've now got sites in, uh, not just in Reddi, but in Bard and Coalville. Uh, Corby, uh, one in Skelmsdale coming up this year, one in Nottingley coming up this year, and one in Dublin.

[00:01:58] Dean: So, uh, we've got [00:02:00] a customs clearance business in, um, Worksop, uh, which is one of the largest in the UK now. We've, we've, we've stumbled into that one. And, uh, we have a distribution fleet extending to about 120 trucks now. Um, so it's an interesting time. We handle about 2 million cases a week. Of chilled foods and we do a lot of co packing, [00:02:20] which is contract packing, case mixing, date coding, tempering, um, and brokerage as well.

[00:02:25] Dean: We do import and export management as well and everything in between that affects supply chain. So every retailer we service every day across the land and every food service operator across the land in the UK and Ireland and a little bit abroad as well.

The Future of Sustainable Energy and Microgrids

[00:02:39] Dean: If we want to do [00:02:40] micro grid here, uh, and, uh, we want to say a six megawatt supply, uh, internally, we have to have a six megawatt feed out.

[00:02:49] Dean: Well, we don't want a six megawatt feed out. We may want to export maybe half a meg. But they won't allow you to do that, will they? It's like the, the, it's the way we've always done it from 30 [00:03:00] years ago, that they, they just will not move on because they need, I don't know, they need some young people, they need some young talent coming through now that actually understands what they're talking about.

[00:03:08] Dean: Because they're too old. They don't get it.

[00:03:12]

Navigating Planning and Policy for Sustainable Development

[00:03:23] Dean: I think to try and convert people to become experts, this is where I think people struggle with planners. Is that we're trying to imagine you get three minutes to present the case in planning.

[00:03:33] Dean: Um, when you're putting your, your, your business case forward, yeah, you can draw the written document. Then you've got all these planning committee [00:03:40] members, uh, plus the council members all sat there listening to you, but you have three minutes to present a business case. That's going to affect hundreds of people's jobs.

[00:03:48] Dean: And you're going to try and. They stole the virtues of the whole virtuous cycle about the renewable energy and try and get them to understand solar and load shifting. They just don't understand and that's not their fault. They're not the experts in that field. [00:04:00] So they should really default to experts who can actually cast an opinion that says this is good.

[00:04:04] Dean: And that should, that should be the overriding presumption in favor of sustainable development.

Understanding Sustainability Beyond Environmental Efforts

[00:04:08] Dean: We all talk about sustainability, but I don't think people understand what sustainability is. You know, I think they all think it's planting trees. Or, um, looking at flood defences, they're [00:04:20] actually not looking at the, the mixed, well, you know, you look at B Corp, we've got, we got accredited with B Corp recently, we've been working hard on that because we like the standard, it means something, you know, it's people, planet, profit, but if you look at the, um, what the, the underlying factors of sustainability is, it's economic, it's social, and it's environmental.

Accelerating Towards Net Zero: Ambitious Goals and Strategies

[00:04:37] Dean: You have to look at all three, you can't just say, well, let's look at, [00:04:40] um, the, uh, how much wind power have you gone, how much off grid energy have you gone, whether you on the journey to net zero by 2050, which I think is a ridiculously long time, you know, so we've accelerated our journey plan from, you've got 2014, 2013, and we believe we're going to do in 2027, 2028 on at least one of the sites.

[00:04:59] Dean: So [00:05:00] big ass, but it can be done.

[00:05:02] Chris: That's amazing.

[00:05:04] Dean: I hope so. We've got some amazing people around us though.

[00:05:07] Chris: Well, you certainly do. Um, um, oh, wow. Wow. That's that, that is the most ambitious I've heard. So far, I think with genuine backing to it, because a lot of, you know, there are a lot of [00:05:20] people out there trying to, you know, trying to get the, uh, race to the quickest net zero, but there's no, there's no substance behind that, but actually, if you think you can do it with, well, I know we can, if, if,

[00:05:31] Dean: if a few people get out of our way, um, and.

[00:05:35] Dean: You know, we've got to fail fast and fail forward. We're not frightened of failing at [00:05:40] all, you know, cause it's the only way of learning. And we've always believed that staying at the front end is where we need to be anyway. So it is, um, you know, it gives us a bit of a market edge as well, because we're actually, even though we didn't move on this sustainability journey for marketing and, and, um, customer wins, it is actually winning as customers now, [00:06:00] because if you've got.

[00:06:00] Dean: Two customers looking at yourself. You've got a customer looking at two providers, sorry. And one broadly the same price, cause we're all roughly the same. Then, and one's got very strong ESG credentials and the other one has none, or they can see that they're greenwashing, which I'm not a fan of at all. Um, you know, dealing with flood defenses [00:06:20] by building a dam in other country, isn't quite the answer, uh, or planting a load of trees, you know, a hundred miles away from the city.

[00:06:26] Dean: That's got all the pollution. Doesn't seem to make sense. And if it doesn't make sense, let's not do it. You know, this sustainability journey for us is winning us hearts and minds, not only of customers and suppliers as well, but also, um, you know, from our own [00:06:40] people perspective, because you drive engagement, you know, and actually there's a staff and I don't know what it is, but there's a stat that says that Um, you know, the, the, the big choice that people are having to make between where they work and let's face it, we're in a competitive jobs market.

[00:06:54] Dean: So, you know, we can all look for the best paid jobs, but we're not only looking for money, we're looking for [00:07:00] the credibility of the workplace that we're going into. So we've got to be very cognizant of that. And we are, and we get this feedback that people choose us because, um, of our journey plan.

[00:07:09] Otto: It's important.

Sustainable Agriculture and Supply Chain Innovations

[00:07:11] Otto: You say about, um, kind of still being able to remain economically competitive, even though you are pushing more sustainable practices in both the supply chain and your [00:07:20] processes, but how are you keeping that kind of delta not so large because things like fertilizers are more expensive and sustainable agriculture is also more expensive?

[00:07:28] Dean: Well, there's always going to be price increases, aren't there? And look, different types of farming Uh, different types of production methodology, but you know, there's so much fat in the supply chain. I'm talking supply chain, not just [00:07:40] trucks. I'm talking about where farmers grow their crops. You know, are you putting the crops in the best location?

[00:07:45] Dean: Is food traveling too far? Uh, you know, I think there's a whole load of shifting needed. Um, and it's, uh, it's going to be driven largely by consumer, um, persuasion because you shop, you know, your choices of where you shop and, um, If those [00:08:00] messages are coming through, then people will have that, um, that, that choice of where to go and that will drive and how much they're prepared to pay as well.

[00:08:06] Dean: Because, you know, food is still too, you know, I know we've got some real challenges with poverty in the UK as around the planet, but you know, food as a percentage of disposable income is still too cheap, but therefore we have a lot of wastage. So to answer your question in terms [00:08:20] of how long term. We become more sustainable.

[00:08:23] Dean: I firmly believe that food supply chain is gonna be more regional. I think people are gonna start thinking smarter. Um, we've got to start thinking less, less about range and all the frills that go. We don't need 64 types of butter for goodness sake. We just don't need it. Uh, we don't need [00:08:40] 16 pack sizes of the same product.

[00:08:42] Dean: Um, let's, let's give consumers the credibility that if you've got a long shelf life product, go for a bigger pack. If you've got something that can be frozen down, let's freeze it. If you've got something that's short shelf life that's suitable for freezing, freeze it first. Let, let nature do what nature does.

[00:08:56] Dean: You know, we do a lot of work with converting, um, [00:09:00] buying habits from not in so much consumers, consumers will buy what you put in front of them if it tastes good and it's the right value. So let's, let's, let's not give consumers too much choice because actually, you know, if you are providing something that's healthy, I, I know for, for, you know, most families would, would say, well actually, if I can buy something that is.

[00:09:17] Dean: Lower cost. I'm not sacrificing [00:09:20] quality. I'm not sacrificing sugar content to find something that's been full of preservatives. Um, and I want to trust the brand I'm working with. We'll give them some answers on that because it frees the stuff down. Cheesecakes is a great example. Short shelf life. If you're going to produce a cheesecake, um, and try and manufacture that fresh, you've probably got seven days, nine days [00:09:40] to shift it through those days lost in the supply chain.

[00:09:42] Dean: Two of them were lost on the shelf at the retailer, which gives you maybe four or five days at home. If you haven't planned your meals, you're going to throw it away. Uh, so there's a real challenge if you can manufacture in bulk, and this is just a worked example where that same cheesecake producer can say, let's make all of my lemon cheesecakes in a big batch [00:10:00] and I'll, I'll manufacture those for the next 36 hours.

[00:10:03] Dean: So I've got only one. Cleaning and price routine because I'm manufactured on one continuous production cycle, so I don't have to clean the lines down each time. Um, then I can put them into, um, the, the, the wastage is, is going to be minimal because I've got only one production run. And once I finish the products, the, the, the production run, [00:10:20] uh, there's maybe 50 kilos of lemon left over, but relative to the batch size, it's very, very small.

[00:10:27] Dean: All of that gets frozen on the day of manufacture with a hundred percent of its shelf life, all 12 days at that point. And then it's safe, you know, then you transport it in full loads. There's a carbon road, mile saving to wherever you want to go. So you're not eating into the [00:10:40] shelf life, and then you can put that into storage location to your supply chain partner.

[00:10:45] Dean: In this instance, it's Oakland, but the people do what we do. And then we can treat it as chilled. If we're going to supply the chilled market, we will supply that frozen stock. On the temper, as it were chilling down to a, you know, a chill, stable temperature over the next 24 hours. So [00:11:00] you as a consumer get a hundred percent of the shelf life on the shelf known to reduce waste by around about 35 percent known to reduce cost by up to 54%.

[00:11:10] Dean: So why would you not do it? And by the way, you don't need any preservatives. So those are the type of initiatives that drive sustainability and that's before we start looking at packaging.

The Impact of Automation and AI on Sustainability

[00:17:54] Otto: Are you going through processes where you're automating some of these things and adding kind of AI technologies and [00:18:00] various machine learning systems to help with that? I

[00:18:03] Dean: mean, I hate AI, but it's, uh, it was scares me to death. I look, there's a, there's a part that it has to play. And I think that. You know, the parts that are really productive that are the boring things that we should really let computers do the most of it's [00:18:20] things like planning where your energy is, you know, something really, really boring, but hugely important predicting what consumers are going to buy actually isn't it is incredibly powerful for that we use AI for that on meal kits, for example, a meal kit is a great way of delivering some sustainability because there is no food waste.

[00:18:39] Dean: [00:18:40] You know, you have. A kit, you know, we all know the major brands are so, you know, we will particularly with mindful chef gusto or plants people like that that do Great products and what you buy you you use for the meal and that's it You have a bit of packaging which we're working on because then that's a big deal breaker for a lot of [00:19:00] people but that delivers a food wastage reduction But we use AI because the meals change every week and you think, well, that's going to drive a load of wastage.

[00:19:08] Dean: I wish they didn't change every week, but we, we, we do it. But that's, uh, it doesn't create as much wastage as what you, you think. Um, because we are, we are creatures of habit as humans. So, um, it seems to work [00:19:20] for that. So I think AI has a part to play. I'd like to think and hope it doesn't become all consuming in our sector, heaven forbid.

[00:19:28] Dean: Um, but automation. Or human assistance robotics is what we would like to be putting a lot of our attention into rather than industrial robotics and industrial robotics is my [00:19:40] understanding of that is that you know that replaces people assistance robotics just makes the job a bit easier and we sell that to our own people that are the basis that there's there there is and can be resistance to automation but our uh, Purpose, you know, with people planning profit being our target is that we, um, we bring robotics in to make their job [00:20:00] easier, to make it, to make the more accurate, to drive a bit of sociability and into the job as well.

[00:20:05] Dean: So we can work faster in shorter hours, for example. Um, and it also helps to drive up wages. So we're not looking at to replace people just to make the jobs better. Um, so I think again, that's a big thing. It's also consumed a lot of energy as well, of course, but, but then again, you know, so do [00:20:20] people cause you know, people.

[00:20:21] Dean: Working in our chilled warehouse is to produce heat, which we've got to get rid of.

[00:35:12] Chris: I'm I'm properly fanboying here. I'm sorry. I spent the last 20 years of my life trying to convince people of the art of the possible when it comes to [00:35:20] energy and sustainability, usually you just get a smile and a nod and a okay on your way, Chris.

[00:35:25] Chris: But the, uh, this, this is excellent. I'm actually got someone. You properly understand way beyond my level of understanding. I have to say, Dean, the the impact of combining everything and yeah, and managing a full [00:35:40] sustainability strategy. I mean, I know I know some of it's quite a lot of it's aspirational at the moment, but just just the ambition.

[00:35:46] Chris: I'm just I'm living off this. Well, it's it's I think people

[00:35:50] Dean: aren't changing the status quo and I don't want to

[00:35:55] Dean: But you know, we're a great believer in, in putting together a non [00:36:00] selfish virtuous cycle.

Innovative Employment and Living Solutions

[00:36:01] Dean: So, um, apart from our people, cause we want great people working here and to provide great people, great jobs. It doesn't mean to say they have to be. You know, all degree students, not everyone wants to do that. Not everyone is academically minded, but you know, they might be great parents or sons or brothers or sisters, but they actually just want a job [00:36:20] in an area doing something constructive.

[00:36:22] Dean: So we've got to be able to give them a great job on hours that suit them. And yes, we want seven days a week, 24 hours a day covering somehow, but we can do that because some people are nocturnal. Some people, you know, it's this, this, this Acadian rhythm is out there. It's not, if people have heard of that, it sees your body clock.

[00:36:37] Dean: So, so let's tap into that. And [00:36:40] then.

Revolutionizing Local Employment and Housing

[00:36:40] Dean: You know, if we can give people the opportunity to live and work locally and a 12 an hour job, which you can't live on, they call it living wage, it's not living wage, you can't live on that. So if we can make 12 an hour, we've tasked our team with this and we think we can deliver this, or we know we can, is that, you know, turn 12 then you can get people out of poverty.

[00:36:59] Dean: Because actually [00:37:00] there's a strong correlation between child poverty, single parent families, most of which end up being the woman looking after the kids, so they can't get the job because it just doesn't work with childcare. So let's Let's deal with all those in turn. So let's give them a job that suits and hours that suit them locally.

[00:37:14] Dean: That's a big tick in the box. Let's give them a home that's going to cost 80, 000 for the three bedroom home, [00:37:20] um, on site nearby. Let's give them, that's the third, the cost of what it would be anywhere else. So they've got no travel costs, they've got a third of the rental. Uh, let's give them some, some off grid in terms of energy.

[00:37:30] Dean: So their costs are one tenth of what they would be anywhere else in terms of utilities. And let's give them free childcare, because they'll trust another woman to look after their kids. If we give them the facilities, [00:37:40] whether it be a forest school, or a soft play area, or just somewhere secure. So then the childcare cost is gone.

[00:37:44] Dean: There's your 25 and then you've dealt with child poverty instantly because you have, but then there's the thing I quite like about on a plan, which is evolving quite rapidly. And we are, we've launched it already.

Launching a Zero Emission Solution for City Deliveries

[00:37:56] Dean: Now, actually, it's the first of its type in [00:38:00] the, well, I think in the world, actually, we'll say that until someone's proved it wrong, but it's the, it's the, um, It's the EV, um, solution, it's the zero emission solution, so very heavily reliant on our energy procurement.

[00:38:13] Dean: This is really important to us though, so we are a real driver now on electric vehicles for city [00:38:20] deliveries. Hydrogen will have its place, and that will be the heavy goods vehicles. For the local solutions, the 0 to 30 mile radius has got to be in vans. It's well proven technology. We've got hundreds of vehicles on site now that are all EVs.

[00:38:33] Dean: We understand them. So, um, so in this instance, let me just explain it in terms of how it all works.

A New Model for Food Service and Waste Management

[00:38:38] Dean: Cause this is quite sexy. [00:38:40] So, um, if, if you have a, um, The most difficult person to serve is going to be your Auntie Jo, who's going to be in London running a small cafe and all she needs is, um, three kilos of bacon, some fresh eggs, um, some cheese and some ham.

[00:38:58] Dean: Delivered, but [00:39:00] she doesn't know what she's going to need tomorrow because she doesn't know he's going to turn up So she doesn't want the wastage and no one's going to serve because she's too damn small Okay, so she's left then with like going to a wholesaler big food service operators who are falling apart at the moment Unfortunately, and not therefore because the pandemic's dealt with that one.

[00:39:17] Dean: Um, but actually it's not going to recover quickly [00:39:20] So in this instance auntie joe can actually sign up to working with us and if she's in london, which is a real You Problem to get around of course is let's put the worst city we can in terms of distribution. So we'll give her the iPad and we say to Joe, right.

[00:39:35] Dean: Don't do anything. Just this, this, this supply chain that you need for [00:39:40] your meal break, as it were. So if I decide what they are, let's call it 200 product code. So it's the hams, the cheese, the yogurts, the eggs, anything that if you haven't got it, it's going to cause an unsatisfied customer and you lost income and lost footfall.

[00:39:53] Dean: Put that onto your iPad. Yum. Go. Internet, whatever, then we'll put a star link in for you, then that's fine. Dead easy to [00:40:00] do. So what we'll do, instead of you, um, when you take your meals, then we will, um, we will, as you, as your orders are being placed, we will then say, okay, do nothing, just bring it through the We'll take care of the rest of it because tomorrow afternoon, uh, as long as those orders are closed off by 7 p.

[00:40:16] Dean: m. this evening, that will be replaced for you in a box that [00:40:20] is, we have them in this room somewhere, they're an insulated box, so we will use parcel carriers through our EV network to deliver that box to your Joe store that afternoon. So you never got any stock and you never got any way. So, you know, for our stock, and by the way, that's going to be around about 40 percent less road miles than the conventional supply chain and around [00:40:40] about 60 percent lower cost because there's no compound margin.

[00:40:43] Dean: So it's going to cost you less. You've got zero wastage, but the real magic happens after you've got the stock. Okay. So, but first of all, you, you. Cafe's functioning. Okay. So, um, what will happen then we say to you, cause there's a load of wastage in the cafes. Yeah. So what we say to the box is there. We want it back, please.[00:41:00]

[00:41:00] Dean: Uh, if we don't have it back, we're going to charge you for it. And you don't want to keep boxes anyway. So, um, put all your waste food in there, all your eggshells, all your sandwiches, everything else. Okay. Uh, and then we'll collect that box. It's costing you nothing to get that box back to us. What we will get, because there are, if you add up all of the, and this is one market stat, there's, there's [00:41:20] in terms of non affiliated hotels, farm shops, delish restaurants, and the convenience stores, there's 214, 000 in the UK.

[00:41:27] Dean: Uh, that's before we start touching the rest of the marketplace. So, um, if, if each one of those was to bring back whatever they have with sandwiches, biscuits, um, kitchen scraps. Put into these [00:41:40] boxes what we get then from those 214, 000 destinations is a huge mix of nutritional content. Yes, because we're going to put that into an AD plan.

[00:41:50] Dean: Um, and what we want is that variability and you'll get that from 55, 000, 200, 000 destinations. Uh, so that comes back to our site. [00:42:00] We do package it. We have the skills to do that. If you throw cardboard in there, it's also fine. We'll deal with that because councils don't know what to do with it and they don't do anything with it.

[00:42:09] Dean: They just throw it to landfill most of the time. So we'll bring that back to site, put it through the A. D. plant.

Sustainable Agriculture and Energy Production

[00:42:13] Dean: And of course, I think most people understand A. D. So anaerobic digestion. So, uh, that, that makes a meal out of that [00:42:20] waste and it turns that into gas. Um, but one of the things it does need, it needs a break crop going in there because food can be too rich for it.

[00:42:26] Dean: It can get indigestion literally. So there's four by products that come out of an AD plant. Um, people ignore the fourth one, I'll tell you what that is in a minute. Um, so solid fertilizer comes out. So that will be a great tool for the local farmers, because we [00:42:40] want them to have that fertilizer, not just for their own crops, but actually most farmers, they have to have a three crop cycle and a three year break cycle.

[00:42:47] Dean: So they're great, a week for three years. Is

[00:42:49] Chris: I think I use it at home, is that the stuff that's very high ammonia content?

[00:42:53] Dean: Yeah. It

[00:42:53] Chris: comes out of an A. D. plant. Yeah. I think I use it. Depending what you put in. We call it local, local farm. Yeah. So you can put, if

[00:42:58] Dean: it's chicken muck [00:43:00] going in there, then, um, yeah, that'll be coming out pretty rich.

[00:43:02] Dean: Very alkaline. Yeah. Yeah. But there's, there's a whole, there's a, you can guarantee the consistency more or less of what comes out. Very valuable for farmers, because then you avoid. Um, the, you know, you can get organic status off an AD plant because you're converting all this into something rather than putting fertilizer on, you're putting this other fertilizer on, which is [00:43:20] natural, semi natural.

[00:43:21] Dean: Um, it all depends on what you put in, of course, but they have their, their, um, their fertilizer that produces, um, a better yield. We want their break crop, which is maize generally that goes into an AD plant, uh, that helps us probably a 30 percent mix. Um, and then the other product coming out of it is, um, liquid fertilizer.

[00:43:39] Dean: So we will [00:43:40] feed that into an on site vertical farming unit, which has a place on site for our meal kits, especially. So we'll be growing spinach in there, for example. And we've already producing from the methane that's coming off the AD plant, we're producing, um, off methane, which is the energy or base load generation for the grid.

[00:43:58] Dean: Uh, the micro grid that [00:44:00] we're employing on site, so that brings our energy cost down for, in this instance, our vertical farming operation and other occupiers on the site. And then the other byproducts, of course, is going to be, apart from energy, is going to be CO2 off the methane generation process, which people just discard that.

[00:44:15] Dean: It's really valuable. It's valuable in terms of if you got a vertical farming unit on [00:44:20] site is very valuable for CO2 in which in the air. If you've got food preservation requires CO2 nitrogen mix, let's put the CO2 into the boxes. Yeah, because it helps food preservation. So let's not waste it. But in this instance, we're focusing on vertical farm because we want it to be sustainable.

[00:44:34] Dean: Spinach on steroids, you know, and the steroid is co2. So they've got cheap electricity. They've got [00:44:40] co2 enrichment. They got 20 25 percent improvement in yield. So the vertical farming people are really happy with this yield. And by the way, we'll give them an offtake agreement into someone like mindful chef is going to buy all this fantastic high quality spinach to go into their meal kits that then go deliver to people's homes.

[00:44:55] Dean: But then of course, you've got the vertical farming, Spinach producing very [00:45:00] oxygen enriched air. So let's just grab that and feed that into our mushroom facility, which is an oxygen consumer because then actually want they'll feed off the same low cost electricity and stable supply. Um, but they'll also have a, um, obviously the, the oxygen enriched air would improve their growth, which then makes them convert.

[00:45:18] Dean: More oxygen to CO2, which [00:45:20] gives us a high enough concentration to convert that into, um, dry ice, which is the mechanical calling mechanism for the okra box, which we're sending the products out, which has got the meal kits in it that goes back out to Auntie Jo's store. So there's a virtual cycle, but everyone in that cycle, from the food producers, the, you know, the, um, AD plant people are very [00:45:40] happy because they've got an off take agreement where we're paying them probably 10, 15 percent above market rate, but it's base load generation.

[00:45:46] Dean: Uh, the, the, the vertical farming people are delighted because they've got yield and they've got off take agreements and they've got supply chain on the doorstep and they've got users there and everything is more efficient, they don't need to store the stock because we're just packing to order and we can, we can model the cycles around the demand, [00:46:00] uh, and then all the vans are full going in and going out, so you've got 100 percent utilization on the supply chain.

[00:46:04] Dean: And

Expanding the Vision: Financial Strategies and Sustainability

[00:46:05] Chris: is this connecting the two in terms of what you spoke about before around, uh, Um, reducing child poverty and paying well above the, is that, is that, is that a result of being able to, being able to operate this, bringing it all back together? [00:46:20]

[00:46:20] Dean: Yeah, it is because, you know, if, if you're a producer and I was.

[00:46:25] Dean: Trying to sell you some space on the food park. I'd have you signing up that deal at the end of today. I know I know it would because it's a no brainer. If something's I know they say something's too good to be true. They're too good to be true. But actually, this is true. So, um, it's well on brand. Yeah, [00:46:40] absolutely right.

[00:46:40] Dean: So now it's 100%. And look, you know, having having, um, The ability to locate on a site where not only do you have the symbiosis effect of actually you're buying the same ingredients as another 50, 60, 70 producers. So you're all buying wheat or flour in this [00:47:00] instance, or sugar or salt, all these things, but you'd be buying more of it.

[00:47:03] Dean: It'll be rolling in quicker, but more importantly, becoming in on four trucks and those trucks will be leaving site full as well, because. We're backloading. Why would you have a truck coming in empty or going out empty when actually you've got logistics solution whose job it is, is to make sure that happens.

[00:49:38] Otto: interesting. You mentioned [00:49:40] the kind of the logistics element of it. And I think to the point earlier, we were discussing how, um, how do you remain competitive, competitively economical with other businesses who aren't following sustainable practices? It's very interesting to just hear that kind of circular economy that you've infiltrated across the whole of what your business is doing.

[00:49:57] Otto: Doing, and of course your fertilizers aren't going to be more [00:50:00] expensive because you're using an ad plant to actually use the waste that's coming from the food you're distributing. So it seems like the logistical piece is equally as important as what you're actually making is as per your investments.

[00:50:12] Dean: Well, it is a lot. I think that some people question whether you can afford a sustainability agenda or sustainability manager [00:50:20] or being sustainable. I say you can't afford not to.

[00:50:22] Chris: Yeah,

[00:50:23] Dean: I've always believed that. But actually, I think you can put a lot more. Um, facts behind it nowadays and, um, Oh, look, you know, if we speak for ourselves and look, we don't have any miracle cure to doing great business, you know, we're on a journey to great work, whether we ever get there, I don't think you ever [00:50:40] get there, you know, and people say, well, how were you successful?

[00:50:43] Dean: Well, you're not, you're just on a journey towards being better. That's, that's how we look at it. And, you know, you never be good enough. Um, otherwise you've got to retire, haven't you? Cause you know, you just need to stop. Um, but I, I, I think that the, the, the journey for us is, um, yeah, it's driven by [00:51:00] the, the need to probably leave a, a legacy on doing business the right way.

[00:51:05] Dean: I get really annoyed with businesses. I make where it's all about the bottom line. It's all, it's only thing that people are interested in and how many dividends you get and this, that, and the other, but, you know, we can prove. You know, you go through our accounts, you know, [00:51:20] dividends don't play a big part.

[00:51:21] Dean: You know, I don't wear Rolex, nothing wrong with Rolex. I just don't wear them. You get mugged, don't you nowadays? But you know, I think having, um, having the, the ability to, to reinvest in stuff that gets you out of bed for me, it's making a difference. And, you know, it's shown that people who, I love a challenge, but you know, if you say something's [00:51:40] impossible, then okay.

[00:51:42] Dean: I'll take that one, let's have a go, you know, and, and some of these things may be, you know, um, and they may be impossible. I, I've not found anything yet, but you know, it may well be, but if you set your mind to it, you may lose interest in something. Maybe the dream isn't quite what the reality is, um, in which case you choose not [00:52:00] to pursue it.

[00:52:00] Dean: But actually if something is becoming, and child poverty is always going to be there, there's always going to be an imbalance of wealth. And, and, you know, we're great at doing that. We're a tribal world, tribal planet, aren't we? It doesn't mean to say you can't stop and try and do things better and show people that you can be good in business.

[00:52:17] Dean: It's not the old days where you got some people that [00:52:20] at the top of the business that are very rich and they get all the posh cars and the posh houses and everything else at the expense of everyone else. That's not something that sits comfortably with me. You know, we, we look in, I walk around our car park often.

[00:52:33] Dean: And actually, I take great pleasure in seeing that people can afford or trust us and their job to actually go and buy a new car. [00:52:40] Um, you know, we've got the schemes, whether car or bike actually, so, uh, and, you know, that's a demonstration of confidence also that we're doing our job right, that we pay well enough.

[00:52:50] Dean: And we want to pay more, you know, actually, I'm a great fan of bigger wages. You know, we work hard in what we do. So our people deserve it

[00:52:58] Otto: to make that kind of thing [00:53:00] possible. I'm sure that I know yourself and the finance teams have to crunch a lot of numbers to make sure that that still checks out as a business and you're still making those profits.

[00:53:07] Otto: But when you cast your mind back to when you were earlier on on this sustainability journey, and you were still looking at the options available to yourself and all the different things you could be investing in.

Challenges and Opportunities in Sustainable Investment

[00:53:18] Otto: What was the process that you and your team [00:53:20] put together? Put into that decision making and how did you go about knowing what was that good starting point to make

[00:53:25] Dean: great question and you know, we struggle with that because you know, and again, I sound like I'm really grumpy devil because I'm going to say that I'm gonna call out the banks on this one because they also have got a green investment [00:53:40] fund and we've got Billions as allocated to.

[00:53:42] Dean: Yeah, they have. But you know what they want? They want your home guaranteed. They want you your grandmother's home guaranteed. And actually, by the way, we'll put we'll put something in your coffin as well, just in case you don't pay. So they're not what they say they are, you know, and unfortunately, and that's something that needs to be addressed.[00:54:00]

[00:54:00] Dean: You know, I'll use an example. So solar, when that first first came out, I won't say we were in a relatively early adopter. We were one of the people that got a 55 pence a kilowatt hour. Oh, yeah. So that shows how early we were. Um, but you know, even then 55 pence of something you didn't know existed, whether you knew it, well, [00:54:20] that was a big risk for us.

[00:54:20] Dean: And it was 150 grand of investment at a time that, wow, that's a big, big decision. So we set up at that time, um, Environmental business, okay, if this doesn't work, I don't it bringing down the rest of the business Um, and I'm not not least of all because as a business [00:54:40] generally we borrow money we borrow a lot of money and and it's good to borrow safely, but We have this rule that we never go above 50 percent loan to value.

[00:54:49] Dean: So the back measure will always come and see us And we have a great relationship with the bank and long way that continue. That's as long as we're at 50 percent loans of value, we get to 90 percent loans of value. We've [00:55:00] probably got a different conversation. I have to go and see them. Um, so I don't want that to happen.

[00:55:04] Dean: Um, but actually in our environmental business, we said, okay, we'll leverage that to 90 percent so, cause I don't mind that. Um, and actually those are all safe assets, aren't they? So. Uh, everyone understands solar. I couldn't get 90 percent loan to the body without any cross guarantees today. And it's been around for [00:55:20] donkey's years.

[00:55:20] Dean: So they haven't moved on. Um, so it's a, it's a great question. And one that, that, you know, the competition for resources at the time solar was seven year payback. It still is. I think the price has got to keep the payback the same personally, but. Um, so that's my skeptical side, but nonetheless, seven years is still 14%.

[00:55:37] Dean: It's still good, you know, it's good enough. And you won't find anyone in [00:55:40] the stock market offering 14 percent guaranteed. So why wouldn't you put solar in? Why wouldn't you do it at home? Why wouldn't you do it in every business? You know, frequently I'm on planes a lot, you know, I'm looking, I'm always looking a bit sad, looking at how many, how many roofs as you're landing.

[00:55:52] Dean: I've got solar, so few, it's crazy. Uh, and yet it fits perfectly with business profiles with this, you know, mid day to 2, 3 [00:56:00] PM peak. Um, but those decisions are really hard. Because you know, if you're, if you're a young business scrapping around for the resources, I don't know many small businesses that are cash rich.

[00:56:09] Dean: I just don't, you know, and cash is what kills business, not profits.

so at the moment, um, or historically incremental, um, Investments in, uh, things that we might call quite safe investments [00:58:20] around, um, whether, you know, solar, et cetera, although back in the day, kudos to you for, for being one of the pioneers, but the, the.

[00:58:28] Chris: There's going to be a big jump ahead to get to that virtual circle that you were talking about to get to the, um, logistics of, of, of taking that cardboard box to Auntie [00:58:40] Jo's and, and, and, and getting that food waste back and all that sort of stuff. How are you going to convince the banks or how, what sort of investment are you thinking is going to be required for that?

[00:58:50] Chris: I don't know whether you can share any details, but to get from, The point of where you are to that to that end goal.

[00:58:56] Dean: Yeah, it's a good question as well. You know, and I don't [00:59:00] worry about money because a good idea will always find money. Um, so there are, there is, I think there's never been more money available from an external investment.

[00:59:10] Dean: Genuinely, it's the least of my concerns because we've got models that work. Um, and as they roll out, you only got to demonstrate they're working. We get it working in London. There's no shortage of [00:59:20] people that will be jumping all over this for a stake. And that's fine. Because actually, again, it goes back to our root belief is let's just roll quickly because there's enough there for everybody.

[00:59:30] Dean: The money markets can make their money because all they're interested in is money. That's fine with the one of 14 percent ROI That's we'll give them 14 percent ROI. That makes them very happy and we just want them to be happy Anyway, [00:59:40] because we're gonna borrow more money off them or get them to invest What we want to be able to do is roll out quickly.

[00:59:45] Dean: So, you know people say well some of the ideas, you know we're talking about them freely here because Actually, the speed at which we work is the best painting that we find that we have really, um, but you know, yeah, it does require a lot of cash, but it's cash tied up for all the [01:00:00] right reasons, though, um, and.

[01:00:02] Dean: It's self generating as well. So if you've got, um, for example, the, the food service network that is launching, um, with, um, you know, the, the, uh, zero emissions network and the next day delivery solutions that there's really good margins in that. Actually [01:00:20] for all involved, not just for us. I mean, you know, our margin for supply chain is okay.

[01:00:24] Dean: We, we try and make 6%, which isn't a lot for what we do, you know, for, for a high risk, high service industry, uh, plenty of other people, big brands making sort of 12, 15, 20%, you know, and, and some brands, bigger brands. Don't pay the taxes. So we all know what they're like. So I'm not going to [01:00:40] name a shape. It's

[01:00:42] Chris: unravelling quite quickly.

[01:00:48] Dean: But no, I think it's this, um, the, the, the growth to the, the, the ability to grow, I don't think will be restrained by cash. Um, and there are different ways. Like if we were, if we were pushing, money into depots and [01:01:00] building a 30 million pound depot. We're not going to spend 30 million pound on a depot.

[01:01:02] Dean: We're going to get the landlord, the property investor will put that 30 million pound in. We will just put um, the rental agreements and we'll rent that space. So someone else's cash is tied up and our job is to make a, a margin on the per square foot rate. That comes out of that. So, um, but no, I [01:01:20] don't see the next three to five years, that changing in terms of

[01:01:24] Chris: needing to get to a point and then a massive acceleration into doing it very quickly or something like that.

[01:01:30] Chris: Or is it, you're just going to keep, keep continuing the same sort of level of innovation and implementation.

[01:01:36] Dean: We're looking to grow faster, um, as a business. Um, we can do that [01:01:40] with our own, our own financial plan. We'll take care of that. Yeah. But people riding on the back or alongside us, and we're a collaborator, as you know, so we will, you know, the lot of people I'm hoping will do exceptionally well as a result of some of the journey plans that we lay down.

[01:01:54] Dean: Um, and they will find their own funding streams quite comfortably, and they've demonstrated they can do that. You know, there's [01:02:00] the ultra fast delivery paper, a case in point that hasn't worked out. That wasn't our doing, but the market shifted. But, um, you know, they, they capitalized at 500 million. Just a launch in the UK.

[01:02:10] Dean: So there's big money out there. So it's, it's there and it's available for the right initiatives. Uh, and the way we roll out, you know, within six months, once they've got a model that [01:02:20] works, um, they'll find it.

there's a mindset that you've got to move away from as all industries is that you need to do this. Behind closed doors so that, uh, you are protecting your competitive advantage or [01:05:20] something like that, perhaps that the actually collaboration is going to be the key to ultimately solving the planet and it's got to be, it's got to be industry collaboration and there are loads of industries coming together.

[01:05:29] Chris: We work with, um, partners in the food and, um, hospitality sector, uh, and they're coming together really successfully, but there are certainly industries where it's where [01:05:40] it's a lot harder to, to get that sort of, um, Understanding that we've, we've, we're all in this and like, it's, it's, you just can't, you just can't try and go alone.

[01:05:49] Chris: Um, but yeah, I think that's a, it's a

[01:05:51] Dean: crucial word, that collaboration. People talk, but they don't do it. And that's, that's another frustration of the industry is that, uh, You [01:06:00] know, we can sit around this table. Not that we would because we're collaborating anyway. But, um, you know, you say something to each other's face and we seem to be lacking the integrity as an industry or as a country whereby we'll stick to what we said.

[01:06:13] Dean: We've agreed at the meeting

[01:06:15] Chris: because

[01:06:16] Dean: money gets in the way. And actually, that is such a short term [01:06:20] game. Uh, and it's long term pain, and

[01:06:22] Otto: that's the challenge to that, to that collaboration piece as well. I think, especially in the food and beverage sector as well. Just looking at the retailers at that downstream end, and then you've got the farmers at the upstream end.

[01:06:33] Otto: And we find that especially when we're looking at customers, um, on that more downstream side, that their scope three section of their [01:06:40] emissions, the first thing they're going to do is put that responsibility up their chain. And what we're finding is, is a lot of these growers and farmers at the top of the chain are suddenly left with, I've got to change how I do it.

[01:06:50] Otto: Everything on site just to appease the downstream end who seem to have managed to swindle it and make it so that they don't really have to do anything. They just have to wait for those changes to be made. [01:07:00] But I guess there's a little bit of a difficulty with all coming into a room together at all points along the chain and coming up with a solution.

[01:07:07] Otto: So those downstream ends do need to be providing that support upstream, whether it be financially or ideas or resource.

Navigating Environmental Sustainability and Corporate Responsibility

[01:07:15] Otto: And I guess you could sit very much in the middle there. Um, so what are you doing with [01:07:20] regards to Oakland in supporting those upstream ends? And how are you making it easier for them and collaborating with them?

[01:07:26] Dean: Well, again, great question. And it's really complicated, the framework, the pillar. I'm one of those that I'm not.

The Challenge of Measuring Environmental Impact

[01:07:34] Dean: Unintelligent, I just find it really quite boring the way they've laid it all out It's where it's [01:07:40] quite difficult to measure and I'm not alone in that and I'm a big advocate as you know From an environmental improvement perspective and sustainability, but I find that an incredibly boring document Most people I speak to find it exactly the same.

[01:07:52] Dean: So let's surround yourself with no, let's find exactly Let's find let's say in this instance You know, bearing your head is no good. So we [01:08:00] haven't buried our head. We're dealing with it. And actually we said, actually, we'll take that. We'll raise it by five years. Thank you very much. So we will do.

Collaboration and Innovation in Reducing Emissions

[01:08:06] Dean: Um, but actually we've got responsibility to, I know this is one thing I should be learned, um, not just from, um, uh, you know, our own, our own commitments through the foundation, et cetera, but also with B Corp, B Corporation, because we got [01:08:20] certified in that in, in November and that's people planning profit.

[01:08:22] Dean: One of the big. Um, scoring factors, if you like, with B Corp is this community that they've creating, which is basically like minded people all coming together, wanting to do the best they can for people, for planet, for profit, in that order. Okay, and actually profit is the last thing [01:08:40] on the list, because actually, if you look after your people, you look after the planet, almost certainly your profits will follow.

[01:08:46] Dean: So, you know, your business model is going to be pretty fundamentally broken before that happens. If you're in business and you focus on those first two, you should follow through with a profit.

Leveraging Technology and Partnerships for Sustainability

[01:14:37] Chris: So dare I ask, have you used true yet [01:14:40] to showcase the economic, uh,

[01:14:42] Dean: Yeah,

[01:14:42] Chris: I was in your

[01:14:43] Dean: sustainability.

[01:14:45] Dean: The relationship we have with, uh, we haven't true. I think it's been exceptional. Um, it's been an interesting journey because actually it's a lot easier to have a discussion with people that get it and get us.

[01:14:59] Dean: And, you know, [01:15:00] when I'm doing my pitch on What the passion that we believe we should be putting into our business, you know, to find a part of the gets that and then can compliment it by saying, Oh, yeah, we get it. And we can help you because we've got this. I thought, Wow, okay, that's really interesting because being able to Tap [01:15:20] into a program where you can instantly assess because we've got one site here and we've got, you know, by the end of, uh, 2025, we should have another 14 sites, not all big ones.

[01:15:32] Dean: So there'll be four big ones and there's a, there's a whole load of small ones. And we're just with someone this morning that they want 36 sites, all [01:15:40] small ones, but there's no point just because they're small saying, well, there's no agenda for energy because there has to be an agenda for energy. Yeah.

[01:15:46] Dean: And that's what I really like about the, the, the, the true platform is that actually within minutes almost you can say actually, well, what do we think the energy is going to be and we might be wrong. Uh, this is what we think [01:16:00] the profile might look like. And actually, if we put this mix of solar and batteries and, um, and we can put this green sleeving going on, there's a whole load of stuff that you guys understand that.

[01:16:09] Dean: I don't want to understand at this stage, you know, cause actually I know that there's a trust factor that we've built up that you understand the industry, you know, what we're getting, where we're coming from, you have to surround yourself by [01:16:20] experts you trust and, um, and that's what we think we found. So that's what we know we found.

[01:16:25] Dean: So it's great. The speed at which you can assess. Projects and sites because you know, there's a temptation. If you've got one size, I don't really need that. We'll go and get my own sustainability manager and I'll do my own calculations and I'll listen to the salesman at [01:16:40] wind or battery and everyone else.

[01:16:41] Dean: And I can guarantee that they're not going to be selling your best interest. So, you know, I like the fact that it's, it's, it's very independent of, um, of the technology that's there, you know, it can present solar for what it is and it's raw. Beauty and, uh, solar for what it is or CHP or GSHP or [01:17:00] PSC, you know, all these acronyms.

[01:17:01] Dean: I'm learning, um, so, you know, um, but you know, there's, there's a lot of, well, yeah, apologies for that one, but you know, it makes it sound like I'm talking, I'm talking about, but they work though, you know, and actually the more important is, you know, collectively, I think as this rolls out and more people take it up.

[01:17:19] Dean: We'll make [01:17:20] mistakes. We all do, don't we? And you know, you guys aren't perfect. We're not perfect, but you know, we learn from each other. Uh, and actually you fell fast. She fell forward. Um, we learn quickly, we put it right. And, and actually you reassess the technology on the next one. So, you know, we can get 80 percent or 85 percent right on the first attempt.

[01:17:36] Dean: We'll be delighted.

Overcoming Regulatory and Planning Hurdles

[01:21:56] Chris: I'm just gonna latch on one final [01:22:00] thing to how do we, how do we support Oakland in overcoming This, uh, this sort of legacy. We won't name and shame the planning, uh, uh, council that is, that is sort of saying, but is there, is there data? Is there, is there, is there reporting? Is there demonstration? What's, [01:22:20] what is it that's going to get over the line?

[01:22:21] Chris: So actually you're going to get the tick or the green stamp of approval because you, you, you mentioned talking, you've, you've, you've done that. You've got this, um, concept, um, potentially growing in Moldova. Why can't the UK, saying no to this? And it would, yeah. Blanketing the UK, maybe unfairly blanketing the [01:22:40] UK, but certainly your council here, what can we do to overcome that?

[01:22:43] Chris: I think

[01:22:44] Dean: every council largely is very similar. I've not met a council yet that would say do what you want to do. It was very strange actually going into Moldova where, Vera Garaz will name and applaud him because he saw me within 24 hours and [01:23:00] he got it within 10 minutes. He said, what can I do to support you?

[01:23:03] Dean: And he's in touch with me on a regular basis saying, come on, come on. Let's, let's have you here.

[01:23:06] Chris: I mean, that's amazing.

[01:23:07] Dean: Yeah. And look, you know, that was driven by our relationship with Moldova was actually came from supporting Moldova and long story cut short the guys In [01:23:20] Moldova, the, the charity called Hopeful, which I'd urge anyone to go and see or speak to if you want to know how charities should work.

[01:23:28] Dean: Um, and they are, um, a food distribution or humanitarian aid distribution, um, charity that works with, um, Uh, Moldovan and Ukrainian displaced people, [01:23:40] fiercely advocating, uh, dealing with, um, child trafficking, human trafficking from Moldova. You pay Europeans capital for child trafficking and human trafficking.

[01:23:48] Dean: Uh, and they've been the highest proportion per capital of, of, uh, Ukrainian, um, refugees. Um, because it's a small country, Moldova, and they're the poorest country and they're dealing with all this, this black. So we went [01:24:00] over there and we would, um, we set up a. I went into Ukraine with them, actually, just to see whether they really did go to Ukraine, and they did, actually, they're doing a great job.

[01:24:08] Dean: Um, and then they, um, they said, well, we've got all this food and A coming over, we won't know where to put it. So, there was a warehouse up there, and long story cut short, we did the deal on the day. And we rented that [01:24:20] for five years to see how they get on with the view that they can have a hand up rather than a hand out.

[01:24:25] Dean: So now they're operating our depot free of charge that they can ultimately, we're going to start bringing, well, we are starting to bring in food from Ukraine back into the UK via the hub so that they can get some economic returns and then they can distribute it to the um, [01:24:40] people that need it. But the, the interesting thing, Vera Garaz, having the trade minister, he wants what we are offering Which is just to give, um, a food park with all the associated skills, the learning and development center, the, the labs, um, the, uh, the fulfillment center, the micro start units, all of these [01:25:00] things, and actually keeping it off grid.

[01:25:02] Dean: Uh, there's no money needed off the Moldovan government there. We'll pay for the land. We'll employ a lot of people. We'll train a lot of people, bring those people on specific sleeved visas to the UK, train them and send them back again. And it does, there's so much in terms of ESG credentials, [01:25:20] there's no shortage of funds there.

[01:25:21] Dean: So that council, that government got it in 10 minutes. Our government is taking 25 years, uh, we'll do it. So, you know, we're on three port discussions as well. We've got, um, uh, discussions in two councils that, that I think will go further than the one we're in now, which is a shame because it's, [01:25:40] we'll go quicker where we are, but that's fine.

[01:25:42] Dean: We're location agnostic as that goes. So, um, and you know, actually food parks need to be around the country anyway. So. The aim was major ones for us, North East, North West, South East, South West, and the Midlands. But to actually go back to your question, well, how do we move it forward? No one believes it can be done, and people, generally speaking, [01:26:00] either are lacking the intelligence, lacking the passion, or lacking the foresight.

[01:26:03] Dean: Um, to actually understand it and that's not doing them a disservice. It's just the truth. They just haven't got it So we can sit here and moan about it and I have done for a long time, but or we can Be sort of slightly controversial and just do it.

A Vision for Sustainable Food Supply and Distribution

[01:26:19] Dean: Um, [01:26:20] so i'm of the mind to do the latter So we've already started anyway, so it's got me into trouble with Uh, planners, because we, we, you know, we've, we did a lot of work during the pandemic when everyone else was locking down.

[01:26:30] Dean: We, we, um, you know, we, we were, we, cause we were into internet food. Um, our orders went 460 percent in the month of March and April. Um, [01:26:40] and we put four buildings up, which we wanted to get planning permission for. They're temporary buildings, but we wanted to get permission for those four buildings. And, uh, but they were shut.

[01:26:49] Dean: Um, and, uh, anyway, they've, they come onto us. Five days after the pandemic ended and so I'm gonna take him down. Uh, so yeah, that's up the council. We've [01:27:00] got, um, but I'm not saying anyone else would be any different, but they just don't get it. So the idea would be, you know, we've got our latest building that's gone up, which we're calling unplugged for the sake of anything that's more revolutionary.

[01:27:10] Dean: But, you know, the idea on that is that we'll have, um, so the panels will have a battery. We have the tree management system in there, of course. We want to do some load shifting in there, but we're growing vertical [01:27:20] crops in there. We'll have mushrooms in there. There'll be veg processing. We do a lot of work with charities with Fairshare, so we're going to be repurposing around about 2, 000 tonnes of veg per year for Fairshare.

[01:27:31] Dean: That's where I was this morning. Great organisation. And there's a lot of charities that we work with in terms of food dispersal rather than food disposal. Then we want to [01:27:40] show, um, um, The council naysayers and local residents and anyone else who wants to see because anyone can come around our premises.

[01:27:47] Dean: It's an open door. Um, within reason, they've got to come clean and tidy, of course, but then we'll take him into that building and we'll show them what I've illustrated before. We'll show them, um, a crop of spinach that's [01:28:00] growing on CO2 enriched air, which is then feeding into the mushroom facility and that spinach and those mushrooms will be feeding onto the pizza line next door, topped up with some.

[01:28:10] Dean: Diced onions coming off our veg processing lines, coming off surplus waste from the food park, all fed by the AD plants, load shifting with batteries and with the freezer as well. We can move that [01:28:20] energy around the site. And by the way, there's Joe, Freddie, and George all on the production line. They come from that little eco home that we haven't got permission for.

[01:28:27] Dean: That's also off grid, um, which they'll tell us to take down in two years time, which is also fine. It's probably worth doing just to show that that can be done. They got to say it's almost, it's almost like the sacrificial

[01:28:38] Chris: lamb.

[01:28:39] Dean: To say, look, it can [01:28:40] be done or you can put me in prison for a year and I'll, I'll, uh, I'll probably arrest them for a while and we'll see how we get on.

[01:28:45] Dean: But, but, you know, it's the, the, the, the, for the greater good, I think we, we absolutely know that we can pay people better. We can do less harm to the environment. Uh, we can make massive improvements in terms of the environmental impact of food [01:29:00] supply chain. Feel good about ourselves, you know, and that's

[01:29:03] Otto: what matters.

[01:29:03] Otto: I guess one of the key things that I picked up on from what, what you said, and you've explained that. Yeah. You talked us through today just the complexity of the process that you've got going on the site and you've referenced that you can have them come on to your site and show them all of this but both of those things we spent an hour talking about [01:29:20] this and you've shown them around on a tour that I assume isn't three minutes and then you're sitting in that room trying to compress all that information into something to people who don't have a background in it.

[01:29:29] Otto: I guess it is it is there potentially a way of pitching and how how you're wording and how you're representing that information and that plan. That's going to help those planners give a better understanding [01:29:40] outside of just employing people with a better background in sustainability. Yeah, I

[01:29:43] Dean: think the answer really is that it's not me that's presenting it really because I get really angry about My oldest son is taking the mantra.

[01:29:51] Dean: He said dad you're not going to go on this anymore So i'm going to do it. So he's probably more laid back than me Um, look, it's it's probably more patient. I'm typically very impatient [01:30:00] because I you know, I'm 57 this year. Can you believe it? Seriously, and it's true Um,

[01:30:09] Chris: but, you know, I've got to work hard. There's lots of, there's a lot to

[01:30:14] Dean: do. You know, I'm still going to the gym every day and I want to keep fitting up to do all these things, but it's, it's really important [01:30:20] that, you know, we're not, it's not something that. But apart from the fact that I'm impatient, but I think we need to be a bit impatient, you know, it's, uh, our generation, we haven't done ourself any favours in terms of what we've done to the planet.

[01:30:33] Dean: Actually, there's time to put a few things right and then you hand the baton to the next generation with at least a degree [01:30:40] of hope that they can put it right, you know. Corrective legacy. Exactly. Exactly. So I don't know. I think it's really difficult. And look, you know, it's almost like no disrespect to Biden.

[01:30:51] Dean: I quite like the guy, but he's too old. You know, you can't live to see the consequences of your actions. You have to, we have to have younger people. [01:31:00] In charge, uh, in, in, in political circles, they're all too old there now, you know, they're older than me. So it's, you know, you need the next generation, the thirties and forties coming through a little bit of wisdom coming at it, but the energy and the passion, the determination to undo some of the damage that's been done, take a bit more of a holistic risk taking view [01:31:20] to what could be done going forward.

[01:31:21] Dean: You know, there's no food shortage in the planet, it's just a food imbalance. And we've got some really, really dodgy practices. It just doesn't make sense. So, there's I haven't got all the answers. I tend to raise more questions than I have answers for. But, you know, I think that, you know, my answer really is that we'll [01:31:40] just do Demonstrate what we can do, and if people like it And it works.

[01:31:45] Dean: Then we've got

[01:31:46] Otto: some shots. Absolutely. No, I think in the time I've spent in working in sustainability, I think the more you look at something, the more questions do arise anyway. And eventually you've just got to go, right, I'm going to just do this and then we'll see what happens and learn from it.

[01:31:58] Otto: Exactly. It's like

[01:31:59] Dean: some of those moving [01:32:00] targets, isn't it? Go for one of them.

[01:32:02] Chris: Absolutely..,

[01:32:04] Chris: Thank you both Otto and Dean. I think that has been, um, well, totally enlightening. I wasn't lying when I said I was a bit of a fan boy. Um, that is, that is, I've been on a massive educational journey over the last couple of hours. So, [01:32:20] uh, thank you, Dean. Um, good luck with the ambition. We're here to support, of course, um, and I hope we're very much part of the solution.

[01:32:30] Chris: Uh, ultimately, um, you, you managed to get through, but, um, thank you for your time. And I think this has been a, been a very interesting podcast and, um, I look [01:32:40] forward to the next one.